Thunder III trem arm

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Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:53 pm

Long shot I know, but if anyone has a trem arm for a passive Thunder III guitar and the collar/sleeve it fits into I need one to either buy or borrow so I can get accurate measurements and copy it. My Thunder III is missing the arm and collar and none of the other Westone arms I've got fits it (Bendmaster FT and Deluxe, Tekglide II, even other precision tremolo arms)

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by corsair on Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:29 pm

This is the s/h/s one, yes?? Maybe the collar and arm from a Spectrum GT would fit... from memory the bar on mine was different to the Deluxe and the FT?? I can't help with measurements 'cause mine's in storage but Barry's got one??

The GT has an odd trem; sort of halfway between a tek glide and a Bendmaster so might be the goods....

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:03 pm

I don't think the GT would do - that looks identical to the trem on my spectrum III, which doesn't fit the Thunder. I think the specs of the precision tremolo changed between 83 and 84

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by corsair on Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:31 am

OK; yep, I can see that and yes, exactly the same!! Bugger!! Mind you, I've gotta say, they look pretty similar those trems - the T-III and the Spec-III - just the Thunder is a little better finished, and the bars look pretty similar as well?! I'm surprised that a 6mm metric won't fit - the sustain block is OK??

And are you gonna give us a look at this machine, man?!

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:52 pm

Pictures coming soonish. The sustain block is fine, but it's different to the later precision trem blocks. The bottom half of the arm collar/sleeve is part of the sustain block, and there's no internal thread - must be a push fit arm with athreaded collar that screws on from the top. It came with a Floyd Rose push fit arm, but it doesn't tighten up enough, the arm is really floppy.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by corsair on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:31 am

Well, if it is a push fit; what about one of the Wilkinson ones? There's no way of putting a spring and ball bearing down the hole to put some upward tension on the bottom of the bar, is there?

http://www.universaljems.com/cart/tremoloarms.htm

About halfway down is the FR RT-C arms; is that what it has now?

Does it have one of those collars like the BD where some of the collar is above and some below the bridgeplate?

Is there no-one else in here with one??

So many questions; so few answers....

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:06 am

I'm not sure this will work - fingers crossed...

This is the bit that sticks up out of the sustain block



and this is the arm it came with



The arm is way too loose, too much slack both vertically and laterally. I doubt any aftermarket FR arms will be exactly right since the trem isn't based on a FR at all - I really need to get hold of (Or at least the dimensions of) the original parts.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:08 am

Nope, didn't work - of course, it's hotlinking.
The pictures are on a page of their own now - http://www.westone.info/t3trem.html

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by corsair on Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:10 am

Ahhh... gee, that looks like the GT's trem.... just in brass!



http://forum.westoneguitars.net/members-westones-f6/new-toy-t234.htm

Ahhh... good pix of a GT's trem here...

http://forum.westoneguitars.net/members-westones-f6/spectrum-gt-1984-possible-preproduction-model-id-needed-t684.htm?highlight=spectrum+gt

Whaddya reckon, Cochise?

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:42 pm

I'd prefer not to comment on other trems in this thread, it's derailing it somewhat. The precision tremelo tailpiece on the Thunder III is not the same as the precision tremelo tailpiece on my 84 Spectrum III, and the arm fixing is different to any other Westone trem - I need an original part, or the dimensions of it, nothing else will do.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by hoax on Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:05 pm

Maybe you shouldn't ask for help if you don't appreciate the endeavours of your fellow members.

Graham

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:03 pm

I most certainly do appreciate it - but I'm after a very specific item, a Thunder III trem arm, not a trem arm off any other Westone (Which will definitely not fit the Thunder) or any aftermarket trem which might do the job purely by accident, I want to know what the original part was like, and to keep the guitar as original as possible. In this case, only someone with a Thunder III can actually give an answer to the question I asked.

No offence intended to anyone - I think this is probably a side effect of my having spent years researching minutiae like how many screws are on a Concord scratchplate.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Westbone on Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:09 pm

6, there are on one of mine, a green one!

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by corsair on Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:49 am

Thorn wrote:I most certainly do appreciate it - but I'm after a very specific item, a Thunder III trem arm, not a trem arm off any other Westone (Which will definitely not fit the Thunder) or any aftermarket trem which might do the job purely by accident, I want to know what the original part was like, and to keep the guitar as original as possible. In this case, only someone with a Thunder III can actually give an answer to the question I asked.

No offence intended to anyone - I think this is probably a side effect of my having spent years researching minutiae like how many screws are on a Concord scratchplate.

Ahahahaha... yes, mate - you're quite right of course and believe me there is no offence taken ... even roughly!! Boy; you've gotta think there's another of these T-IIIs about somewhere, don't you?!

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I have a T-III with tremelo arm

Post by DreamRaven on Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:42 am

Gotta thank Corsair! He messaged me last night, and I was curious as to why, as I hadn't been on here since last year when I gained use of my T-III and had no idea what it was/is

Looking at this picture away from my 'tar:
http://www.westone.info/t3trem.html

It looks pretty close to what my T-III (passive, S/H/S) has, the colour of the body is pretty close too, check my pics:
http://forum.westoneguitars.net/members-westones-f6/1983-thunder-iii-not-active-silver-pearl-serial-number-3063637-t704.htm

The only difference is that mine has a hex nut spun on to the thread of the trem arm 'socket' or 'hole', which is not shown on the original image link at the top, but is on one of the images from my second link.

One thing that I am pretty certain (when I took the arm off and stored it) is that the hole allowed the fitting of a 'standard' trem arm (I have another guitar which also has a trem arm hole with no arm, as I have found no use for them in my playing, yet...).

The guitar is on its way down to a venue, ready for a gig that I am doing on Saturday, so I cannot put my hands on it again until next week, when I can take photos, make measurements, and answer any questions that you might need. I would consider letting you have the trem arm, except the guitar is not actually mine (it was found in the attic of my drummer, so was adopted as our band's guitar, and is the 'sound' of us) and I would also think that keeping it with the guitar would be better for it over time.

Happy to help however I can

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:59 am

I have just re-read some of my earlier posts, and it reminded me that I _didn't_ have the trem arm when it was passed to me, and I certainly do not have a trem arm similar to the ones pictured on the links and in posts above...

I am sure that I did put a trem arm in the socket, though.

Which does actually mean that I might be in the same position as the Original Poster... Hole, no arm...

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:31 pm

I would really appreciate it if you could give me photos / measurements of the brass nut, or if I could borrow it (I'd be happy to pay the postage both ways) for a couple of days so I can try to duplicate it. Once I know what that part is like, I hope I can figure out the arm dimensions, and making a couple should be no problem.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:45 pm

I have no issues. Happy to help out a fellow Thunder III owner/carer!

What I reckon would be best is if, after the weekend, I take some pictures of my tremelo bridge, and deconstruct it as far as I feel comfortable, and take some measurements as I do it, and then I will post the annotated pictures here for your comments/further questions and I will give as much detail as I can. In a past life I was trained as an engineer, so hopefully some of the precision will return to my thoughts.

If, after that, the best solution is still to mail the nut, or whatever, then we can talk about how that might work. Obviously, I need the guitar to still be playable (I doubt the nut would affect it, but anything deeper, may...) as it is the guitar I use for my band, and we play on a weekly basis.

If after all that, we solve your (and probably my) issue of no tremelo arm, then you, me and the whole Westone community will be richer for the experience.

DR

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:01 pm

Thanks very much - my trem is complete apart from the nut and the arm, so you shouldn't need to take anything other than the nut off, that won't affect the playability of the guitar at all.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:13 pm

OK

I have returned from a good weekend of gigging with the precious Thunder intact and making a killer sound through my Traynor YGLIII (is it coincidence that both my fave amp and fave guitar are 'unusual' oft overlooked items marked numerically by the number 3, and that my band is a 3 piece? And all '3' work together really well! What was that phrase about a magic number?)

Images coming, with intact closeup first, followed by closeups on the taken out nut/collar.

both the collar and the nut were removed using a 10mm spanner for which they were a perfect fit. Other measurements that I have made make me think that the thread/nut are both M8 in size, but that is an 'estimate' rather than a definite size. IF anyone needs any more detail, or further imagery, let me know and I will do what I can.













Apologies for both the slight out of focus, in places


Last edited by DreamRaven on Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : image display)

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:26 pm

corsair wrote:Ahhh... gee, that looks like the GT's trem.... just in brass!



http://forum.westoneguitars.net/members-westones-f6/new-toy-t234.htm

Ahhh... good pix of a GT's trem here...

http://forum.westoneguitars.net/members-westones-f6/spectrum-gt-1984-possible-preproduction-model-id-needed-t684.htm?highlight=spectrum+gt

Having looked at these pictures, I would have to concur, the GT's (red with black metalwork) trem looks almost identical, even down to the collar/nut that I have just taken out and photographed. Shame that this is ALSO missing the arm...

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Steve777 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:44 pm

Are your trem pivot pins riding up out of the body? I only mention this as mine sit flush. Just an observation ....

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:44 pm

Thanks very much for the pictures, they do confirm the trem is the same as the later precision tremelo units. Apologies all round, I was completely utterly hopelessly wrong.

Seen from the top it looked like the barrel on mine was part of the sustain block


and that was supported by not being able to unscrew it. Looking at the bottom of the trem reveals why it's different to all the others - and I really wish I'd looked at the bottom ages ago, wouldn't have jumped to the wrong conclusion then




The collar/sleeve on the precision tremelo screws in to the sustain block, this one is set to one side. The previous owner hadn't just fitted a FR style arm to the existing collar, he'd fitted a FR arm and FR collar in place of the original - and to do that, he'd taken 13mm off that side of the sustain block.




The sustain block should completely cover the area where the collar is.

So now it needs the collar and nut, trem arm and sustain block. Luckily I have a spare block or three - just need to find some 10mm hex brass bar to make a new collar and nut, meanwhile the Thunder III can share the arm and collar off my Spectrum III

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by corsair on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:56 pm

Yay... sort of; you're no further ahead but at least you know what's going on!!! And yeah; you can see why you reached the conclusion you did!! And is that brass/bronze, or gold plating? I'd suspect plating as brass wouldn't hold the edge for the pivot???

Dreamraven; you're a beauty, mate; thanks for that!!

Are your trem pivot pins riding up out of the body? I only mention this as mine sit flush.

Yep; they should sit flush as Steve points out; like Thorns are. They need a firm but gentle push back down, with the posts being wound out to compensate...

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:01 pm

Steve777 wrote:Are your trem pivot pins riding up out of the body? I only mention this as mine sit flush. Just an observation ....

Looking at Thorn's picture and comparing it to my picture further up, it does appear that the pivot pins (assuming that the 'pins' topped with a flat type screw, on the pickup side of the trem are the pivot pins) on my Thunder III are not as flush to the body as Thorns.

I have not made any adjustments to them, is that going to effect its action or how it plays in any way, good or bad?

Should I do something about them?

Talk about domino effect! Got me worried now!

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:03 pm

Seems that Corsair answered this before I could post it!

Cheers... Do I need to detach the strings, or just use moderate force whilst the strings are in place?

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:19 pm

Whatever way you do it you will need to retunre and reset the action afterwards. I would try just pushing them in with everything in place, if it needs more force I'd remove the trem and the two studs and tap them back flush with the body with a rubber mallet - I wouldn't try that with the trem in place as that might damage the threads. Take a rough measure of the height of the studs first, they'll need screwed out to about the same height once the mounts are flush.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:28 pm

corsair wrote:Yay... sort of; you're no further ahead but at least you know what's going on!!! And yeah; you can see why you reached the conclusion you did!! And is that brass/bronze, or gold plating? I'd suspect plating as brass wouldn't hold the edge for the pivot???

The saddles might be brass, the rest of it is plated.
Much further ahead now - replaced the sustain block with one off a later precision tremelo (Which is slightly different - the only difference is a groove on the top. It's exactly the same as the Bendmaster FT sustain block, the groove is for the rod that holds the fine tuner levers in place on the FT) and put on the arm and collar from the Spectrum III, and it all works perfectly.

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

Post by DreamRaven on Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:17 am

Thorn wrote:Whatever way you do it you will need to retunre and reset the action afterwards. I would try just pushing them in with everything in place, if it needs more force I'd remove the trem and the two studs and tap them back flush with the body with a rubber mallet - I wouldn't try that with the trem in place as that might damage the threads. Take a rough measure of the height of the studs first, they'll need screwed out to about the same height once the mounts are flush.

I slackened the strings, but didn't completely destring the 'tar. When the strings were loose, and the screws were undone slightly, the tremelo slid out easily. A slight amount of pressure and a light tap from a rubber hammer made them flush, as displayed in your pictures above. Putting everything back and undoing the screws even more brought the string level at the tremolo back to the original 17mm from the body. Guitar retuned, spent the next hour diddling around and doing my 'daily rehearsal' (aka pretending to know all the scales on the fret board, but not really).

A tremelo arm magically appeared through my door this morning, too. It is a sweet fit and looks as if it belonged there! I am not an expert on tremolo action or sound, but the bar does a similar job to that on my other Fender Strat style axe, so I assume all is as it should be. I might leave it on this one for a while to see if I can use it at any point. It does have the benefit, at the moment, to staying where you put it, keeping it out of the way when not in use.

Those Westone 'tar elves are an amazing bunch. I will be offering my undying loyalty to them by the light of the moon at midnight tonight! lol!

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Re: Thunder III trem arm

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