12 string PANTERA Project

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12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:32 pm

I've always wanted a 12 string electric. I'm also a Rabin fan. So in the midst of seeking a Pantera 390 I found an old magazine cover with Rabin holding a Westone 12 string version of a spectrum. To be honest, I'm not a fan of the spectrum looks, but I wanted that guitar. My original plan was to make a copy of the spectrum 12.

While waiting for the opportunity to find a 390, I bought an X300 to hold me over. I finally got a 390 and the 300 became 'expendable'. The 300 looked good, played well, has a nice neck, but the PUPS were crap in my opinion.

So....should I buy a spectrum for the 12 string project? Or....why not try it on the Pantera 300. The original idea was to copy the Rabin guitar, but I thought a bit more and decided to muck up the 300 and make it a 12 string.

PROBLEM:
1. The neck.

I could pay to have a neck made since the typical standard replacements would not fit a westone. I found a custom neck was not cost efficient Smile

SOLUTION:

Use the original neck. The nut is at least as wide as a Stratocaster XII. So while string spacing will be closer then some electric 12's, it will work for me as I have no issue playing a strat XII.




PROBLEM:
2. By using the same neck means I need to find a place for 6 extra tuners. Easy enough on a rickenbacker headstock, but no room on a 300

SOLUTION:

Steal an idea from BC RICH, and put the additional 6 at the end of the body, and add string ferrrels on the headstock. I also will have a new nut made.



PROBLEM:
3. The X300 has a trem....that aint gonna work.

SOLUTION:
Fill the trem cavity, and add a tune o matic type trem unit. Where do I get the wood to fill it...... The following pictue shows the start of this project.
I've cut a chunk out off the end which I will use to fill the trem cavity.


There are a lot of other things to consider, including: removing/filling trem posts, making sure the new briidge is placed correctly for intonation, alignment etc but it's all planned.

This is not gonna happen quick so I will update from time to time, but I made the first steps this week - stripping the paint, and making the first cut.

So for any who care to follow... here is the start of a project that is WAY over my head. Let's hope it works!




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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:12 am

Oh my lord you're an ambitious dude Sarc!
But what an interesting project. Best of luck with this, God knows you'll need it! Wink

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by corsair on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:33 am

I know the purists out there are grinding their teeth, but I reckon that looks OK, man - you're off to a flyer!! Very Happy Ambitious, yes and could be an absolute belter when you're done!!

I still want Rabins white Spectrum 12 , though!!

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:52 am

Reminds me of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-WASHBURN-Electric-12-String-Prototype-Guitar-/360347791413?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:16 am

Westbone wrote:Reminds me of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-WASHBURN-Electric-12-String-Prototype-Guitar-/360347791413?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV

Yup - pretty much the same idea - kinda cool

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by The Chad on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:00 am

As Del Boy Trotter always says, "He who dares, wins!" cheers

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by colt933 on Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:34 am

Holy crap dude! You are brave.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:12 am

Wild idea eh? But I'm wondering how stable the bottom set would be, particulary the E,A and B,E strings.
That's an awful change in direction from the machine heads to the bridge, and there has to be a tension pull to the outside as it passes the saddles.
Dunno, but it raises the little hairs on my neck...shades of (you guessed it) the infamous barrel saddle bridge! Looks purty but might be a disaster waiting to happen. Suspect

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:15 pm

Westbone wrote:Reminds me of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-WASHBURN-Electric-12-String-Prototype-Guitar-/360347791413?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV

On the above there;s some kind of stud directing the string over the bridge.

Had a chance of buying one of these Washburns from my local Cash converters(pawn shop) but was gone a day later.
Normal size fingerboard and played very well. If I remember rightly they were asking around £250. for it. Gotta be quick.

Go for it. Should be worth the build.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:22 pm

Barry wrote:Wild idea eh? But I'm wondering how stable the bottom set would be, particulary the E,A and B,E strings.
That's an awful change in direction from the machine heads to the bridge, and there has to be a tension pull to the outside as it passes the saddles.
Dunno, but it raises the little hairs on my neck...shades of (you guessed it) the infamous barrel saddle bridge! Looks purty but might be a disaster waiting to happen. Suspect

The strings will not be going right from the saddle to the tuner with the setup I have in mind. So the 6 'standard' strings will pass over the saddle and then through the body (so ferrels will need to be added behind the bridge. The 'new' set of six will be strung through the back of the headstock then pass over the saddles and through a stop tail type piece before going to the tuners. This should (hopefully) angle the strings enough toward the body as well as keep the direction of strings pretty straight after the saddle. So the direction change will happen after the stop tail (more like a pss through tail).

Here is a good example of a similar setup:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackson-Soloist-SL2H-12-String-Mahogany-NAMM-Guitar-/260390076530?pt=Guitar&hash=item3ca0754072

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Yeah, that seems a easier way and practical, not really that daunting a prospect.

I know it's a bit in the future but what colour were you thinking of? presuming your using black tuners.


You reminded me of this project, which I'd totally forgot of. Similair type of stringing but only 6. Sad
Had to set the bridge down into the body.
This was made from spare parts.
Left hand tuners on a right hand neck, string pull came out ok.
Just thought you'd like a look








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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:27 pm

Westbone wrote:Yeah, that seems a easier way and practical, not really that daunting a prospect.

I know it's a bit in the future but what colour were you thinking of? presuming your using black tuners.

Yes tuners and hardware will all be black.
But as far as the colour, I've changed my mind a few times already, and will probably continue to do so but am welcome to any suggestions

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by The Chad on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:53 pm

sarcaster wrote:Yes tuners and hardware will all be black.
But as far as the colour, I've changed my mind a few times already, and will probably continue to do so but am welcome to any suggestions

The Pantera Pearl (or some sort of pearl) is what I'm seeing, we already know that looks cool with black hardware. That's a sweet color combo. I'm seeing this because it's a twelve string, so you may want it to look angelic to match its 12 string sound, yeah? Either that or a deep metallic red for the other end of the spectrum.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:23 pm

sarcaster wrote:...The strings will not be going right from the saddle to the tuner with the setup I have in mind. So the 6 'standard' strings will pass over the saddle and then through the body (so ferrels will need to be added behind the bridge. The 'new' set of six will be strung through the back of the headstock then pass over the saddles and through a stop tail type piece before going to the tuners. This should (hopefully) angle the strings enough toward the body as well as keep the direction of strings pretty straight after the saddle. So the direction change will happen after the stop tail (more like a pss through tail)...
Agreed. That looks a lot more stable; not as dramatic perhaps, but a lot more practical.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:55 pm

The Chad wrote: Either that or a deep metallic red for the other end of the spectrum.

Funny, cause it used to be mettalic red - here is the before pic:

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:09 pm

That is a very nice colour. Just sold one that shade.
Not easy to spray.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:25 pm

I'm thinking VW Orange at this time - maybe a honey burst. but who knows..i'll probably change my mind

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:17 am

So after some delay (bought a house/ moved/ settled in a bit) I'm back to working on this. The first cut was a bit sloppy so that will be cleaned up, and a friend will help with routing out the 'shelf' for the new tuner location. Looks a bit scary when taking that much thickness from the body down to about 9/16ths of an inch for the tuners to go through, but will be done. I'll upload some pics once this part is done and then on to filling the trem cavity.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Frenchy on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:30 pm

Holy #$%^ project... I will be watching this very closely... never tried anything this bold.... affraid

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:30 pm

Frenchy wrote:Holy #$%^ project... I will be watching this very closely... never tried anything this bold.... affraid

Nor have I...but that is half the fun.

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Routing is done

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:49 am

Ok, got the "shelf" for the tuners routed out. Looks pretty good, but will need some fine tuning on the sanding part.

I haven't drilled holes for the tuners yet as I still haven't decided on what tuners to use as of yet so next step in the project is to fill the trem cavity. Wish me luck on that part - gonna be interesting.




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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:00 am

Looking good Sarc! (But I'm still biting my nails for you!)
Did you salvage any usable wood from the cutout?

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:07 am

Barry wrote:Looking good Sarc! (But I'm still biting my nails for you!)
Did you salvage any usable wood from the cutout?

Yes I did - the first chunk I cut out I saved to use in filling the part of the trem cavity that goes all the way through the guitar. I will cut it down and hopefully get the top nice and even. I will more than likely just leave alone the part of the trem cavity where the trem springs go, for the time being. I'm more concerned with the hole in the Top of the guitar as the bridge posts will need to be added in/around that area.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by corsair on Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:46 am

Barry wrote:Looking good Sarc! (But I'm still biting my nails for you!)

+1... me too!!

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:02 pm

Anyone notice the back of the guitar is a very thin veneer? I can't figure out why they would use a veneer piece on the back of a guitar they painted.

thoughts anyone?

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:14 pm

Probably typical Mats obsession with detail and quality. A veneer would offer a smoother more uniform finish.

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wood glue recommendations?

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:58 pm

I'm looking to cut down the first chunk I cut off to fill the main trem cavity part this weekend. Any suggestions on the glue type once i set it in?
also, do I make a super tight fit, or leave a little give and let the glue do more work?

Can ya tell I have no idea what I'm doing Smile

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:57 pm

Looks like you'll be straddling the join between the two main body pieces, so when you key in that plug you'll be really strengthening the entire body significantly. A good quality carpenter's glue should do the trick and provide an excellent bond. I'd go "snug" as opposed to "tight"; a light tapping seats it, using the glue as a lubricant.

"Tight" will squeeze out the glue, but you also want to avoid using the glue as a filler. That presents finishing difficulties.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:52 am

thats what i wa thinking - too tight equals glue squeaking out, but too loose equals glue as a filler.

Wish me luck on this part all

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:50 am

Put some little grooves into the mating surfaces, for the glue.
You dont want a hammer in fit and you dont want a loose fit neither, just nice and tight...just right. Smile The glue will act as a lube.

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Dremel Trio??

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:25 am

Anyone ever use a Dremel Trio for routing? I ordered one and should be here Saturday. It can be used for small routing jobs which is what I need to take off the "lip" at the top of the trem cavity. My current router just seems to big for such a small route so I'm trying the dremel out.

Once that is gone I've started to cut and sand down the original chunk I cut out and will glue it in to fill the cavity. I'll also have the bridge post removed and filled, so hopefully some new pics this weekend.

Next step after that is to mark the bridge location (which I've never done before) so I will measure 50 times before drilling the new post locations so I don't mess up intonation. After that add the tuners, drill for the string ferrels, and add all new electronics, paint & sand it up and be done.......so about another year and a half Smile

Really I hope to start moving quicker after the trem cavity is done - I can't wait to get this one done.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by IanO on Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:51 pm

Nor can we!

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Filling the Trem cavity

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:44 pm

The Dremel router worked out very well for a freehand route of the 1/4 inch lip at the top of the trem cavity.





And I love my table top belt sander. Makes it easy work to slowly get the chunk of wood to the right size. Almost the right size in this pic:




Now the tough part is getting the top arch just right. I put in the piece and let it stick up about 1/8th of an inch and then traced around it so I could match the curve of the top. This shot shows just a little bit off on the right which was easily sanded to be level.




All glued in and set up to dry for a day. Here is a front and back shot. I will need to put a little filler around the edges of the top as the router cut in a hair too much - I was freehanding it.






Tomorrow when it is dry I will take out the bridge post pieces and fill those in with pieces of a dowel, and maybe mark out the new bridge.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hoax on Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:02 pm


Sarc

That looks like a really professional job, but you are mental !!

Can't wait to see the finished results.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:20 pm

hoax wrote:
Sarc

That looks like a really professional job, but you are mental !!

Can't wait to see the finished results.

Hoax

I'm no professional by any means so Thank You! I've never done anything like this before, but I am putting patience before anything else. This is just a primer for my attempting to make a whole guitar from scratch.

And yes I am mental...My psychiatrist will confirm if asked.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hobster on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:34 pm

Very cool Sarc, looks good so far. I hope you pull this off, it should be a heck of a challenge! We're routin for ya. Very Happy

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by grogg on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:22 pm

Im loving this, good on ya.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Warrn on Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:18 am

hobster wrote:We're routin for ya. Very Happy
But he said he did the routing himself! *ba-dum-tish* Laughing

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by The Chad on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:14 pm

Warrn wrote:
hobster wrote:We're routin for ya. Very Happy
But he said he did the routing himself! *ba-dum-tish* Laughing

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that way!!! lol!

This is quite ambitious to say the least, hat's off to ya. I'm considering moving the bridge on my Vandenberg slightly to the right, which would require dowel rods into the existing holes and drilling new holes, and even that little bit of work scares me! Laughing And here you are virtually creating!

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Bridge pin pulling

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:23 pm

Ok so today was bridge pin pulling day. I thought this was going to be a little difficult, but was really easy. I lost the screw from the BMD that was on this guitar so I had to take one of of my 390 (just temporary) to pull them out.

Once out, I dropped in the correct sized dowel with a nice shot of glue around it - sorry, no maple dowels at the store, just pine, so just a little pine will make up this guitar.

Sanded the glue from the dowel and the chunk I did last week really quick and it is just about right. A little wood filler for some low spots from the glue and this is all set for the new bridge markings.


lifting the pins out:


Dowels are seated:


Quick sand and ready for the next steps:

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:01 pm

My nipples are getting hard in anticipation. What a Face

(Pity you did not rotate that plug 180 degrees...looks like it may have closely matched the body grain. No?)

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:04 pm

I had thought about that, but it I thought having it this way may be stronger? I could be wrong and it may not make any difference - but at the end of the day it will be painted so we won't see any grain (hopefully)

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hoax on Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:44 pm

Barry wrote:My nipples are getting hard in anticipation. What a Face

(Pity you did not rotate that plug 180 degrees...looks like it may have closely matched the body grain. No?)

Exactly my thoughts Barry - Not the sore nipples part but the plug rotation!

Sarc you are still mental!!

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Iceman on Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:05 pm

Barry wrote:My nipples are getting hard in anticipation. What a Face

TMI there big fella... Suspect No Mad

I will admit to savouring the moments, though. Great work, Sarc. cheers

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:06 pm

I'm avoiding the Nip comment altogether

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by mortarman120gang11c on Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:05 pm

Thats really nice work and it is looking good thus far. Keep up the great work and thanks for the updates as this is an interesting project. Arthur

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PROBLEM

Post by Guest on Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:12 pm

Ugh. I used a bit of filler today and then was going to measure the new bridge posts. To do so accurately I wanted the neck installed so I could split the scale. PROBLEM....where is my neck plate and screws?????????

I moved during this process and can't seem to find the neck plate + screws, or the BMD that I had planned to sell. not good since I have had the time to work on this lately. So anyone have a black neckplate and screws they don't want? I'd really prefer not to make one as I have no metal working skills/tools.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by corsair on Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:51 am

Oooh; that'd rip yer undies, eh!!! And as soon as you've sorted out new ones, the old ones will turn up!!

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:06 pm

Use your Strat one in the meantime, same size.

I've always found when placing a bridge is to have the 2 outer strings on to line it up the neck at the same time.
Might help to place a pickup in as well to line up your pole pieces.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:50 pm

Westbone wrote:Use your Strat one in the meantime, same size.

I've always found when placing a bridge is to have the 2 outer strings on to line it up the neck at the same time.
Might help to place a pickup in as well to line up your pole pieces.

That's some good advice - I will definately do that.

Thanks!

Guest
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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

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