12 string PANTERA Project

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:50 pm

Westbone wrote:Use your Strat one in the meantime, same size.

I've always found when placing a bridge is to have the 2 outer strings on to line it up the neck at the same time.
Might help to place a pickup in as well to line up your pole pieces.

That's some good advice - I will definately do that.

Thanks!

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:17 pm

When I mentions strings up the neck. I usually use fishing line, it's easier to work with.
I know you have some, screaming reels mate.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:29 pm

Westbone wrote:When I mentions strings up the neck. I usually use fishing line, it's easier to work with.
I know you have some, screaming reels mate.

That is something I have plenty of. I think I have more fishing rigs then guitars!

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Bridge mounted

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:06 pm

Now I have 2 Panteras with stop tail bridges. Next up is ordering some tuners since I never could find 2 sets of Westone tuners in black.

Any suggestions on what tuners to use?


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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:08 pm

It's also nice to see it can sit on a stand without messing up the bottom tuners Smile

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hoax on Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:24 pm

I have seen plenty of Gotoh lookalikes on Ebay. Just about every cheap fender copy has them right now.You know the type "fully enclosed 6 in line tuners, blah blah"

I have recently bought a chrome set for one of my Westbury's and they are a good match for Mat's Gotohs.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:35 pm

Ordered 12 new gotoh's and some pickguard material that I will use for the truss rod cover. Since the locking saddles will no longer be there I need to make a new cover that may be a bit larger than the original.

So what should I put on the truss rod cover?
I'm thinking X312 would sum it up nicely.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:08 pm

Tuners will be shipped Saturday, as well as the truss cover material. I also added a 2nd order to Stewmac for the string ferrels for the neck. It really is coming together after a long delay from the start of the project. Still need to decide on the pickups ( I'm thinking passive EMG's) and after that I really can;t wait to do the painting. It will be my 2nd time round and am hoping for a close to proffesional finish based on my first try.


Can ya tell I'm exited about getting this one done?

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:34 pm

sarcaster wrote:...Still need to decide on the pickups ( I'm thinking passive EMG's)...
Not a big fan of EMG's. Any particular reason why you chose those?

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:31 am

Used these on a 12 string because of the pole piece size, good results.
http://www.guitarfetish.com/Bigmouth-Bridge-Pickup-POWER-with-vintage-Tone_c_33.html

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hoax on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:57 am

Admittedly, I know very little about 12 string guitars. I would have thought though, that it would be better to stick with low output pickups to give the wood a chance to create the tone rather than the windings and magnets.

As a 12 string is used primarily as a rhythm instrument, in my view, clarity is the most important consideration. I know from experience that high output humbuckers can be a little too much for rhythm playing and need the volume rolled off to maintain sufficient distinction between the note each string produces. If there are no treble bleed capacitors, the rolling off of the volume can cause its own problems

Personally, I would use low impedance single coils and no more than 8.5k Ohms (typical Gibson PAF output) on the bridge.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:47 am

Can always switch a humbucker, series/parallel and a coil tap. Very Happy

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hoax on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:58 am

Westbone wrote:Can always switch a humbucker, series/parallel and a coil tap. Very Happy

Too true and that would allow the use of a higher output pickup, so that coil tap doesn't reduce to 4k Ohms. I would certainly use a treble bleed capacitor on the humbucker at least.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:19 am

Barry wrote:
sarcaster wrote:...Still need to decide on the pickups ( I'm thinking passive EMG's)...
Not a big fan of EMG's. Any particular reason why you chose those?

Have used them in other guitars and always liked them - but I have not used their single coil PUPS as of yet, so It's not set in stone.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:24 am

Maybe I'll just hollow out the whole guitar and make it an acoustic 12 string Smile

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by hoax on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:49 am


The original pickups might just be the best option. They might have sucked for lead work, but they may just be OK for a 12 string. Also it gives you more of a "factory" end product.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:14 am

hoax wrote:
The original pickups might just be the best option. They might have sucked for lead work, but they may just be OK for a 12 string. Also it gives you more of a "factory" end product.

Hoax

I gave them away since I was pretty unhappy with them and hadn't planned on using them in anything else.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:08 pm

sarcaster wrote:Maybe I'll just hollow out the whole guitar and make it an acoustic 12 string Smile

You've only just started filling in holes. Very Happy

Personally I think a coil tap in the bridge is a waste of time. Parallel tones are much more clarified with a humbucker.
Treble bleed capacitors are a good little mod. and were fitted to Mats. Vox 25's as standard.

Turn it into a shredding mean 12 string machine Laughing It's taking good shape though. Don't spray it some 'cheap' colour, something a bit classy. 'cause it is starting to look class.


Last edited by Westbone on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:23 pm

Westbone wrote:
sarcaster wrote:Maybe I'll just hollow out the whole guitar and make it an acoustic 12 string Smile


Don't spray it some 'cheap' colour, something a bit classy. 'cause it is starting to look class.

I'm always open to suggestions on color. I am still leaning on California Orange that would look good with the black hardware - is that a cheap one?
I was also thinking of something like the Caspian blue that the 390's come in if I could find a close enough match.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:52 pm

Caspian blue, yes very nice. What about your local car paint shop?

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:18 pm

Westbone wrote:Caspian blue, yes very nice. What about your local car paint shop?

I might have to start looking around since it is getting close to the sanding, painting process

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:45 pm

Hoax wrote:I would have thought though, that it would be better to stick with low output pickups to give the wood a chance to create the tone rather than the windings and magnets.
Sounds like the right approach to me Graham.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:52 pm

So I am passing on making the 12 string nut. I have to outsource this part as I don;t want to spend the money on a set of files and have my first attempt on a 12 string nut. A local luthier (the one who fixed the headstock snap on my 390, and refretted/planed the neck of my 350) will be doing it for 50 bucks. While I really wanted to do it, I want it to be perfect. I measured the bridge location 30 times to make it perfect and am confident that is good, but I don't have the confidence yet in making a nut from scratch, so to keep this guitar project going good I have to allow a pro to do this part.

He is not the quickest worker as he is busy so this may hold up some updates, but I will update what I can. I should have tuners before I drop it off so I can at least test it as a 6 string on saturday and check the intonation - fingers crossed that is good.

and I'm still confused on color and PUPS to put in. Now I'm thinking 3 single coils wired like a strat and maybe caspian blue or something like it. I fall asleep thinking of what to do and wake up thinking I'm wrong - yes...I am a guitar nerd



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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:32 pm

The only electric 12 I'm half way familiar with is the Danelectro DC-59 reissue we have in the shop (two of 'em actually). It's great little player incidentally if you ever get the chance to muck with one!

In typical Dano style the lipstick pups only put out a little over 4K each, or 8 in the mid position, but they sound amazing and I cannot imagine a higher output contributing anything but noise to the sound. Sumpthin' to mull over. geek

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:20 pm

well I got some time to think about the pups and the color. Gotta get the nut done and lots and lots of sanding to do in the meanwhile so we shall see.

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Tuners!

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:51 pm

Got the tuners today. The Gotoh's fit the neck spot on. Drilled up some holes on the bottome and put them on. Now I can string as a 6 sting and test the intonation - fingers crossed I did the bridge right.









Making progress. I think the string ferrels are showing up tomorrow so hopefully I can string all 12 strings tomorrow for a test. Stay tuned.....

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:39 pm

No ferrels delivered today Sad

But I did string it up as a six string and the good news is the bridgeplacement is perfect - it intonates just fine - that is a huge relief.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Warrn on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:18 pm

Does that Yuengling have something to do with the bottom tuners not appearing to line up...? Neutral

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by mortarman120gang11c on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:26 pm

That looks Cool patiently awaiting paint and more photos. great work.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:40 am

Warrn wrote:Does that Yuengling have something to do with the bottom tuners not appearing to line up...? Neutral

ha - it might. It is not perfectly lined up. I predrilled small holes to help avoid the the bigger bit slipping, but it still slipped a bit. I don't have a drill press yet so these were done by hand. Before my next project I will have a press. Smile

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Wrong ferrels

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:00 pm

So I got the ferrels and they were too big in my opinion for installing on a headstock. So I'm getting the mini's instead and will save these for a 80's Pete Towshend Schecter tele copy I plan too build in the future.

I've also decided on the pickups. the Lukather signature set of EMG's. Ordered and about a week to get.

Time to get the nut built by my neighborhood guitar builder and start sanding while I wait for parts.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Westbone on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:50 pm

Why didn't you place the machineheads closer together to reduce the string angle to the bridge? It's not painted yet.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:21 am

Westbone wrote:Why didn't you place the machineheads closer together to reduce the string angle to the bridge? It's not painted yet.

I kept the spacing approximate to the spacing on the headstock. Mailnly to keep the same feel when tuning, I think anything closer would feel too close, or make it where I whould accidentally hit one while tuning another.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:49 am

There's something in what Damian says.
Those E strings look like they're going to be entering the bridge at something approaching 45° methinks.
Might be courting premature string breakage. scratch

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:59 am

Barry wrote:There's something in what Damian says.
Those E strings look like they're going to be entering the bridge at something approaching 45° methinks.
Might be courting premature string breakage. scratch

I don't think it is any greater than the Jackson or Washburn 12's, but we shall see

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LAST CALL FOR COLOUR SUGGESTIONS

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:59 pm

Let's hear it for color suggestions. I may be without the neck while the nut is built.
Let's hear suggestions - pix welcome. I will be sanding down to paint grade and want to see what ya think works


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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Iceman on Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:55 pm

sarcaster wrote:Let's hear it for color suggestions. I may be without the neck while the nut is built.
Let's hear suggestions - pix welcome. I will be sanding down to paint grade and want to see what ya think works


...they say that taupe is very soothing...

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by The Chad on Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:36 am

Good eye, Ice. Maybe taupe with a nice Mauve accent.

Yeah, that's it. scratch

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Change of mind

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:21 pm

I was going to have my local luthier make the nut. I changed my mind and will do it myself. I figured I need a set of file for the future of me making my own guitars so now I am waiting on the nut blank and the files. Hopefully I can measure them corectly. So sorry, a little delay in progess

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:34 am

sarcaster wrote:I was going to have my local luthier make the nut. I changed my mind and will do it myself. I figured I need a set of file for the future of me making my own guitars so now I am waiting on the nut blank and the files. Hopefully I can measure them corectly. So sorry, a little delay in progess
Hey, no need to apologize Sarc! Move at your own pace, not our expectations, eh? Good on you for diving in and doing all this yourself. And thanks for documenting it all. cheers

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:25 pm

Nut blank ordered while at work thanks to gittarasaurus measuring the x300 nut for me. Next up is ordering the files - and ouch! they are not cheap. I hope to do the ferrells this weekend though - will post pics as usual

Also I think I have settled on the old 65' 66' Mustang Caspian blue, but it does not seem easy to find this paint. If anyone has some leads I would appreciate it. I will have a real sprayer soon (no rattle cans this time) but on a quick look , it isn't a common colour to be bought.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:56 pm

ordered the files and shapers for the nut. It was pricey, but I can consider it an investment since from this project on I plan to build my own guitars so why not start to accumulate the tools needed.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by corsair on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:22 am

Good for you!! As for he colour, any halfway decent paint shop will be able to match any shade you take them! I took a chip of paint off a 1943 German field gun and the local yokels matched it exactly, so even the paint chip off the colour chart should be OK?!

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:08 am

corsair wrote:Good for you!! As for he colour, any halfway decent paint shop will be able to match any shade you take them! I took a chip of paint off a 1943 German field gun and the local yokels matched it exactly, so even the paint chip off the colour chart should be OK?!

Did the fact that you had a gun in your hand at the time make it possible that they tried so hard to match it??? Smile

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by corsair on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:48 pm

As if I'd do such a thing.... Twisted Evil



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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by mortarman120gang11c on Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:11 pm

Most firepower means best customer service any complaints will be sent via barrel mail. lol.

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Headstock work

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:33 pm

So today was ferrel day and had to make some decisions. I have the mini ferrels for the top, and tele type for the back, but after looking at how much room I had to work with I decided to uses the mini's on both sides. This means in the back the string ball end will not be recessed like the back of a tele. The ball will be exposed but since it is behind the headstock I don't think I will mind.

You will also see the ferrels get closer together as I went up the headstock. This was intentional to try to keep it lined up with the nut spacing, and I dont think it will interfere with the 'normal' strings since they will start at a lower angle then the ones coming off the tuner posts. We will see. I also got the nut which has the right dimensions but didn't get my files yet so I just put it there for the picture.


It's always nerver racking drilling a whole into a perfectly good neck.




Here is all all 6 mini ferrels. A little touch up paint will be needed as the brand new drill bit still pulled a little from the edges. I also have the material for the truss rod cover which I will do after the nut is secured


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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by corsair on Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:35 pm

Sweet mother, you're a brave, brave man!! looking good, Sarc....

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:53 pm

corsair wrote:Sweet mother, you're a brave, brave man!! looking good, Sarc....

Thanks

Brave? nah Weird? maybe. Just can't wait to be done. I work with a bunch of guitartists that can't wait for me to bring this in.

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Barry on Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:54 pm

Yer scarn' the crap outa me! affraid Suspect Shocked

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:34 pm

Barry wrote:Yer scarn' the crap outa me! affraid Suspect Shocked

I'm getting less scared now that I know the intonation is good. Making the nut will be scary , but after that then it is all sanding and painting, and wiring which I think I can handle. I just wish I could do it all in one day. Can't wait to be finished and take a pic next to the other Panteras

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Re: 12 string PANTERA Project

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