Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

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Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:32 pm

Hello!

This should be an easy one for you guys (and gals) (ah no, forgot, no gals here anymore :cat: ).

As you maybe know, I am a very happy owner of a Dim IV. Only problem, and it truly is the only problem, is that the bridge pup sounds extremely thin. No point uploading audio samples, trust me.

Now, I check the resistance with my multimeter and it reads at 11k ohms, exactly like the neck pickup.

Am I right in deducing from this fact that the pickup is fully functionnal and that the problem lies within the one of the pots (especially the bridge tone pot, which also is supposed to do the phase out of phase thing but doesn't do any of that, actually the sound doesn't change whether this pot is pushed or pulled)?

Apart from that, the soldering seems in place and there are no loose wire within the cavities.

Thanks :heart:

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:59 pm

http://www.westoneguitars.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Dynasty-Guitar-Wiring.jpg

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:11 pm

The wiring matches. Forgot to mention that.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:14 pm

Well try changing the pot or switch cleaner not WD 40.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:23 pm

This kind of thing is commonly caused by oxidation on either the pots (typically) or the selector switch. It's amazing how much signal can be lost, so check this first.

Easily remedied will liberal squirts of a good quality electrical contact cleaner (not WD40! Westbone beat me to it) Soak everything and work the pots vigorously to ensure coverage of the surface area. Works like magic. We see at least two of these kinds of problems every week in the shop.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Iceman on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:51 pm

DeOxit is amazing stuff for the job but also has an amazing price that tags along wherever it goes.

You can usually find a product by CRC called QD Electronic Cleaner at Walmart which will work as well. It should be in the automotive section in a red & white 11 oz. spray can.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:39 pm

Products will vary from place to place, but the thing to remember is that there ought not be any lubricant in the formula. You want to clean the crud off, not add more to it. The usual active ingredient is something similar to what is used for dry cleaning. Smile

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:49 am

Hm ok. I live in Switzerland and I remember looking for some pot cleaner but could not find anything. Either I did not look well enough, or else the hardware stores here don't have it in which case I would have to order some on the internet. I would like to find some as my SansAmp is not working right either.

If worst comes to worst and I have to replace the pot, which one of the ones listed here would be the best replacement for the westone pot?

Thanks a lot guys!

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:05 am

http://www.westoneguitars.net/fixme/wiring-diagrams/dynasty/

It's all here for you.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330569167664?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:46 am

Great!
I was asking about the best brands to use but I think I will follow your advice Westbone, should this pot cleaner not work out.

Thanks! sunny

Edit: oups, this ebay seller doesn't ship to Europe... He has the longest exclusion list I've ever seen, well anyway. Gotta get some pot cleaner first.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:35 am

You may find a restriction on sending this kind of material through the post (aerosol container plus the content).
In a pinch you can use isopropyl alcohol but try to get one that's as pure as possible (fewest additives, highest alcohol content drunken )
Use a cotton tipped swab to apply it and make sure it's completely evaporated before trying the switch.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:19 am

Any good electrical repair shop will point you in the right direction. Shouldn't be difficult to obtain at all.
Don't you have any Radioshack/ component stockist is Switzerland? Or haven't you really tried hard enough. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:55 pm

There are only very few specialized stores in Switzerland. Things tend to be grouped into bigger, more general stores. For instance, if you want to buy components such as potentiometers and even small diameter electrical wire, you will have to order it over the web.
I do remember checking one of the 2 hardware stores in my area and didn't find the cleaner but that doesn't mean they don't have it. I will check again, and check better, I promise :albino:

And if I don't find it, I'll toss in some of my best Islay or speyside as Barry recommends cheers

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:15 am

beavis wrote:...I'll toss in some of my best Islay or speyside as Barry recommends cheers
Nooooooooooo!! Shocked

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by corsair on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:43 pm

Sending aerosols thought the post isn't even roughly do-able these days; I couldn't even get a rattle can from England to Jersey last year!! Twisted Evil

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:59 pm

Yup but it's actually the dpdt switch that Westbone found on ebay that cannot be sent anywhere but Hong Kong, UK and US or smth silly like that Evil or Very Mad

Guess great harm can be done with a 10gr dpdt pot...

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:28 pm

Try here..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A500K-Dual-control-pull-pot-18mm-length-shafts-E14-/130541819418?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1e64e6161a

But I'd certainly try the cleaner first.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by grogg on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:06 pm

I would try the cleaner and if it works replace the parts. Cleaner is a short term fix imo.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:38 pm

grogg wrote:Cleaner is a short term fix imo.
Shouldn't be. If the problem returns it's likely a function of the environment the guitar finds itself in i.e., dampness, dust, etc

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by grogg on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:58 pm

I agree about the environment which can accelerate component deterioration. To me these issues are the first signs of a pending permanent failure and certainly a reduction in reliability. Why take the chance when youve had the warning and the components are relatively cheap to replace?

Thought Id share this story, a friend's son bought a semi-acoustic (335 style) cheap on ebay because it wasnt picking up well. He decided it was the pickup switch (not sure why) and whatever he did with cleaner etc couldnt get an improvement and decided it had to be changed. Dont know if youve ever tried this but its incredibly difficult. A lot of fiddling and threading of string etc managed to get the switch out, on checking with a meter it was fine. Then he realised the previous owner had strung the instrument with nylon strings.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:01 pm

Grogg, that is a mind-boggling story!

This cleaner spray, does it require disassembling the whole pot or just spraying the outside?

Eventually, looks like I will have to replace the part though as my Dimension gets a lot of play.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by gittarasaurus on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:44 pm

actually you want to spray the inside of the potentiometer, where the contacts are.

in the pic, the red tube is the spray tube from my can of contact cleaner.


after you spray the cleaner inside the pot, you need to turn the knob full sweep from one end to the other, over and over and over. this is how you clear the contact of debris. wipe away any excess fluid, wait until all the cleaner has evaporated. after a minute or two you should be ready to test it.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:51 pm

Great pic! Thanks for that Mike.

Grogg wrote:To me these issues are the first signs of a pending permanent failure and certainly a reduction in reliability. Why take the chance when youve had the warning and the components are relatively cheap to replace?
Sometimes that's true enough, but there are many times in a repair situation when that's not possible either for lack of funds or because of the vintage of the instrument. I see both situations weekly in the shop. Replacement is not always an easy, or preferred, option.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:20 am

Oh this is great! I'm off to the hardware store to find this cleaner!!

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:44 am

Ach, got some cleaner but didn't change anything.

The stuff I got is called dust remover, got it at the automotive section of the hardware store. It makes the pot go freezing cold, is that right?

Anyway, the bridge pup still sounds like it's got the volume way down. I must present my apologies to Westbone, I double checked the wiring and it doesn't completely match. But a electronician friend of mine said the wiring was right and that the problem was elsewhere... I'm lost. Might upload some pics or rewire/replace the part. dunno.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:51 pm

beavis wrote:...The stuff I got is called dust remover, got it at the automotive section of the hardware store. It makes the pot go freezing cold, is that right?...
No. What you have is only compressed air for blowing dust off electronics and computer keyboards, etc. That will not degrease or remove oxidation, which is the main cause of your problem. Removing dust helps keep things cooler but it does not clean the contact points.

The can this stuff is in will get extremely cold if you keep spraying continuously. You are supposed to use short bursts only.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Iceman on Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:47 pm

The container ingredients should read 1,1-Difluorothane ; Methanol ; Hexane Isomers ; or similar. It will have the name Contact Cleaner, Quick-Drying Cleaner, Deoxidizing Cleaner or the like on it. Here are a few links to what you are looking for...

http://m.grainger.com/mobile/details/?R=1D262

http://www.lpslabs.com/product_pg/cleaners_pg/Electro140.html

http://www.google.com/m/products/catalog?hl=en&client=ms-android-verizon&sky=mrdr&q=caig+deoxit&gs_upl=19058l25972l0l27162l31l18l1l2l2l2l1257l3185l4-1.1.1.1l4l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1168012930616250541&sa=X&ei=WoYbT6_OGYiA2wWDzsnqCw&ved=0CD8Q8wIwAQ

Any of these will spray out as a liquid that will evaporate within several seconds on any impervious surface at room temperature.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:52 am

Oh great... So the guy at the store told me to buy the wrong stuff then, just perfect. Well I don't know where to get the stuff. I'll have to try ordering it over the web.

Should I come to replace the part (it starting to look easier than this contact cleaner business), do I need a lin or a log pot?

Even thoug this is starting to seriously piss me off, I do remain grateful to you guys for the assistance!

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:23 am

Can't say I blame you for being pissed.
It's a simple remedy...when you have the right stuff! Gotta be frustrating.
(Don't forget to try isopropyl alcohol. It will take a bit longer to dry however)

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:13 pm

Someone please tell me this is what I need:

http://www.banzaimusic.com/Cleaner-601-200ml.html

(costs only the 1/4 of my useless can of compressed air).

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Barry on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:18 pm

Sounds like it may do the trick, but as we said already, they likely won't be able to send flammable items in the post.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:22 pm

Yeah I don't know how this post business will work. Maybe it could go through ground post. I'll give it a try as I am out of ideas as to where to find this cleaner locally.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Sgt. Vimes on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:27 pm

For me Servisol Super 10 has always been the best, available almost everywhere, cheap, clean, does what it says on the tin......

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:32 pm

Thanks, I'm on it, bloody holy grail this pot cleaner.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Iceman on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:23 pm

beavis wrote:Thanks, I'm on it, bloody holy grail this pot cleaner.

Actually I saw a dozen cans of it just this morning at O'Reilly Auto parts priced $3.79 for 12 oz.

Perhaps we Yanks just like having our flammables more readily available for anyone to purchase.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:02 pm

Iceman wrote:
beavis wrote:Thanks, I'm on it, bloody holy grail this pot cleaner.

Actually I saw a dozen cans of it just this morning at O'Reilly Auto parts priced $3.79 for 12 oz.

Perhaps we Yanks just like having our flammables more readily available for anyone to purchase.

Free market is good... and seriously lacking over here. There aren't many specialized stores, so if the generalist doesn't have it, you're not going to find it.

And hey, you won't even find a tasty burger in Switzerland, and your levi's 501 will cost you around 160$ a pair. But then there are many other cool things here, such as hm, high wages, cheese, clocks and national healthcare (teehee), oh and a few westones just waiting for the alert eye to see.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by grogg on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Sounds like you have numerous business opportunities.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:12 am

Wellwellwell, just got my parts from banzaimusic, and mainly (!!) the "Reiniger 601" (auf Deutsch, bitte schön). Neat stuff, but did not help to fix the issue. Just in case, I also bought a dpdt 500k push-pull pot.

I am therefore thinking of posting a pic of the wiring, but it looks pretty original to me (well, my impression being worth what it is in these matters..).


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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:29 am

Ok, well as promised, here are some pictures of the pot. The wiring looks all original (compared to the rest of the electronics in the beast) but does not correspond to the wiring diagrams on the site. Wemfender's thread about removing his mmk 45s is in this case a funny coincidence if the wiring should turn out to be wrong.





Sorry about my thumb being in the way, the quality was as good as I could get on the spot, hope it's good enough.

My idea is to replace the pot using the same wiring, but maybe that's not the right thing to do.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:54 am

Whats the difference between yours and the site wiring?

Have you measured your pickups output?

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:26 am

Westbone wrote:Whats the difference between yours and the site wiring?

Have you measured your pickups output?

Now that I look at it, I have trouble seeing the difference apart from the colors: green instead of orange. I will check again this evening and keep you posted.

The output is of 11.2 if I recall right. Exactly the same output as the neck pickup.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:28 pm

Here are two more pictures and a drawing of the wiring. My camera doesn't seem to want to function in macromode today so the pics were taken with my cellphone.





What might help to see more precisely is to download the pics onto the computer and then zoom in with the appropriate software.

My impression is that the wiring is correct, only the color schemes don't completely match.

Hope this can help you help me :alien:

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might work

Post by wemfender on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:06 am

Hi Beavis, I am no expert, however I have just replaced my MMK45s ( this week ) in my Thunder 1a, mainly because of the same problem you are having, a weak , brittle, bridge pickup, I put pickups with different color coded wires into the mix, and during the operation my new replacements had the same problem, weak , brittle, bridge pickup,plus out of phase just silencing the whole setup when switched,also one setup had no bridge sound at all, yes the thunder 1a is different switching etc, but looking at the pics of the potentiometer, I would try ( the end where you have a blue wire and white wire soldered to the same terminal) AND (a green wire and blue wire together on another terminal )they are on the same end of the switch, I would try connecting the white on the opposite end of the switch so you would have , blue end - earth middle - white/blue end, and leave the green in its now position with the blue ) failing that move the white wire to the other side of the switch so you would have blue/white - orange - blue green, for my penny's worth the problem lies with the phase wiring, that's what i found. Hope this helps, certainly does not sound like a pickup problem with your 11k reading,Good Luck
Steve.

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:45 am

looking at your sketch i see 2 wires labeled PU. one goes to a switch contact and one goes to the center of the tone 2 pot.
the Dynasty schematic shows pickup wires attached to the switch contacts, not the tone pot.

the pickup should have both wires on the switch so that when it is pulled/pushed the connections simply reverse, connecting the opposite end to ground with each push or pull.
the green wire on the switch in your sketch should be from the P/U not tone 1. (should be green and white from p/u attached to separate contacts at same end of DPDT switch on tone 2)

there should be a wire to the switch on the volume pot (yellow on dynasty schematic), for coil split wiring.

i notice one wire (g) you indicate goes from a switch contact on tone 2, to tone pot 1. there is not any reason for this switch to attach to tone pot 1 or the switch on tone pot 1. check this wire. the switch on tone 1 is just to turn on the middle pickup. tone 1 control is for the neck p/u.

it looks like the green wire you indicate goes from the center of tone 2 to P/U, should be going to the 3-way switch (orange on dynasty schematic).

are you confused yet? scratch


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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Iceman on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:24 am

Deja vu yet, Damian??


Last edited by Iceman on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:50 am

Great info! Thanks a lot. It indeed is confusing for a beginner like me. I am going to print out your posts and check the wiring. It is possible that I made a (few) mistakes in the sketch regarding the other end of the various wires. I also was expecting to find a yellow wire, so this is confusing too.

It is a good idea to try switching the wires around before replacing the pot.

Will keep you posted, thanks again!


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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:15 am

to help check the wiring, print a copy of schematic. then use a colored pen and trace over each wire on schematic as you verify the connections in your guitar. one by one. t

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:21 am

gittarasaurus wrote:to help check the wiring, print a copy of schematic. then use a colored pen and trace over each wire on schematic as you verify the connections in your guitar. one by one. t

Excellent, that's exactly what I'm going to do! Thankee

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by beavis on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:22 pm

Mh disappointment. Guess I'll try fiddling a bit with the wiring but will end up replacing the pot. Not looking forward to this but good exercise I am sure...

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

Post by Westbone on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:58 pm

Iceman wrote:Deja vu yet, Damian??

Deja vu, indeedy. Smile

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Re: Dimension IV - MMK45, small issue

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