Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

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Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:09 pm

Why does a Concord not sound like a strat?...
what we have here is the pickguard from my Concord II, serial # 2083078, (so 1982)
looks like what we all know as "typical strat setup"

now with the pickups removed from the pickguard, and the magnets holding them together

okay, now the quiz :?:
in the two pictures above, what do you see and what difference does it make?

other pics to answer possible questions...
here are the connections for the pickups, all the same polarity on the wire connections at the 5-way switch and volume pot ground...

a closer look at the typical magnet

readings on my meter, Neck-4.76kohm, Mid-4.75kohm, Bridge-4.73kohm

Ideas :?:
Impressions :?:
Opinions :?:

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:20 pm

Well

Here is your answer.

The magnets all have the same orientation as they are not repelling one another.

If the lives all go to the switch then you can't get out of phase quack, so you need to either reverse the wires or flip the magnet on the middle pick up.

Solved!!

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by westcoaster on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:46 pm

The simplest and best explanation I've seen. More tips and quizzes please.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:52 pm

Stock-wired Strat pickups all play IN PHASE.
A RW (reverse-WOUND (WIRED) coil)/RP (reversed-POLARITY magnet) pickup STILL plays IN PHASE with the other pups. It is actually incorrect to say that the RW/RP middle pup is out of phase - it is NOT. It is reverse-wound (or reverse wired) (RW) and has the magnets installed with reverse polarity (RP), so that it plays IN phase. Confused? Keep reading...

There are TWO things that control phase:
1. The way its leads are connected to the circuit;
2. The polarity/orientation of the magnet
Think of a pickup's phase as a condition like this: motion (by the strings) through the pickup's magnetic field causes positive electrons to flow in THIS direction (we'll just arbitrarily say, left to right)...

IF I ONLY reverse the positive and negative (aka hot and ground) leads of the coil (RW), the electrons APPEAR to flow the other direction (right to left). The pickup plays out of phase.

IF I ONLY reverse the magnet's orientation from north pole "up" for south pole "up" (RP), the electrons flow the other direction (right to left). The pickup plays out of phase.

HOWEVER, if I do BOTH - reverse the coil connection (RW) AND reverse the magnet's orientation (RP), now the electrons are back flowing left to right, as they do in a "regular" pickup...

So, RW/RP pickups PLAY IN PHASE.

If they PLAY in phase and sound the same, then why go to the trouble of building a RW/RP pickup?

Because when the COILS are connected with the phase reversed (so that they appear to be wound in the opposite direction), if the RW/RP pickup is paired up with a "standard" pup, the pair has a NOISE-CANCELLATION property that attenuates radio-frequency interference.

Because the R-F noise hits the COILS equally and is unaffected by the magnetic polarity, only the noise is out of phase- the "positive" energy created by the noise from one coil is cancelled out by the "negative" energy it creates from the other coil. You've heard the phrase, "humbucking?" That's it, in a nutshell.

That's the whole point of the RW/RP mid pup, to get some noise-cancellation AND KEEP the "normal" in-phase tones. If they didn't play in phase, a Strat wouldn't sound like a Strat in position #2 and #4.

Adding a bit of confusion to this question is the erroneous belief that the #2 and #4 position on a Strat are "out of phase" tones. They are NOT. That QUACK that we know and love so well is the result of two pickups, in close proximity, wired parallel and IN PHASE. There are NO out of phase tones on a stock Strat.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:17 am

So why doesn't a Concord sound like a Strat (even though I think it does]?

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:43 pm

yes i agree, it sounds mostly like a strat

but i guess the thing that had puzzled me for quite a while, was, why does the Concord not quiet down when in positions 2 & 4 (like a regular strat)?

i just noticed this by accident, that the pickups did not have reversed polarity on the middle pickup. i never really thought to check if that was the reason for it. i had not tried to systematically figure out why the noise was not eliminated. this was just a random detail i had not recognized before, about how the westone guitars were constructed.

because the guitar was made in 82, and the RWRP middle pup was still relatively a new idea at the time, i suppose it was not considered the standard that it is today. so the concord guitars were built as the older model strats, with basically 3 identical pickups. the 5-way switch was already the norm for 3 pickup guitars.

so now i know why my red Concord with Fender pickups get quiet, while my black Concord with Westone pickups does not.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:05 pm

I have to admit that I have only ever owned 3 Strat type guitars, including Westcoaster's immaculate Concord 3. I have always assumed that the middle pickup is meant to be out of phase, so any time I have wired them, I have done so out of phase.

What I don't understand is that, to my ear, positions 2 and 4 do not sound like a humbucker, more like out of phase single coils.

Also, why does the impedence half rather than double when a two pickup guitar has both pickups switched on i.e. middle position.

Also - How come you never see any baby pigeons?

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:26 pm


Smile

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:32 pm

Exactly Damian!!

That is not a baby.

Truth is - You just never see them!!

Hoax

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:35 pm

impedence is half because the pickups are in parallel. if connected in series, their impedence will add together.

i think the main reason it doesn't sound like a humbucker is the location of the pickup coils/poles on the string. every different location along the string exhibits different harmonic content. so on a humbucker the poles are close and so the harmonic content in each set of poles is more similar than what you have when the poles are separated by a couple inches. and the noise induced into the system is much closer to the same in each coil as well so the noise content cancels itself out more accurately.

plus, the typical humbucker is series connected, so higher overall resistance from the windings causes a slight loss of high frequency signal. the result is a better noise reduction system with a different overall frequency response curve; greater signal strength (amplitude) with less high end(frequency).

the single coils have less noise reduction capablilties, but retain a broader frequency range, hence the sparkle

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 pm

OK Git

So in a stock Strat in positions 2 and 4 do we have series or parallel connection?

If I don't understand your answer, I am just going to stick to my baby pigeon query!

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:18 pm

strats use parallel connection (multiple signal paths)
every pickup has one lead on ground, and one hot lead to the switch


when connected in series (one signal path), the pickups are connected end to end, with only one connection to ground for all the pickups, and only one hot lead for all the pickups

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:27 pm

Ok

I am with you. I am just too old to remember my Higher Physics lessons but it is beginning to come back to me.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:28 pm

the straight dope on baby pigeons geek

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:42 pm

here is a look at the neck pickup, typical of all of the pickups. it is un-potted. some kind of glue or cement holding down the leads off the coil as they wrap thru to the eyelets for wire connection

and the numbers under the bridge pup...

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:21 pm

All my Concords sound as Strats.

Positions 2/4 are parallel in phase the sound is different to a humbucker in the same mode due to the distance between each p/up on a Strat. Picking up a varying string vibration.
Humbuckers are more or less in the same position.

And you do see young pigeons, they just look slimmer.
Beleive me I shoot a hell of a lot around here due to certain Asian beleives that they must feed their ancestors and place buckets of food out for these flying rats. They're all vermin... Twisted Evil

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:27 pm

Westbone wrote:All my Concords sound as Strats.

Positions 2/4 are parallel in phase the sound is different to a humbucker in the same mode due to the distance between each p/up on a Strat. Picking up a varying string vibration.
Humbuckers are more or less in the same position.

And you do see young pigeons, they just look slimmer.
Believe me I shoot a hell of a lot around here due to certain Asian believes that they must feed their ancestors and place buckets of food out for these flying rats. They're all vermin... Twisted Evil

By the way it is not illegal to shoot pigeons, it is illegal to feed them.

That decoy bird above was bought as a joke pressy at Christmas by a friend, as I hate the fockers

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by corsair on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:42 pm

I was astounded that there were none in Trafalger Square in 2010, not a one but one morning I got up early and had a wander around to see a bloke flying two Harris Hawks around St Paul's! Had a yarn and they fly raptors in the City to keep the pigeons away; seems to work!

My Electra Phoenix has s/h/s pups and I can get the strat sound from that, too....

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:56 pm

I'm surprised that it it not contrary to their human rights to shoot pigeons. And maybe all the baby ones are adopted by thoroughly vetted, left wing, minority, non smoking, assexual , progressive, diversity supporting, civil partnership types.

I believe that you now need vetted to get a scabby dog from the stray home. They actually carry out monitoring visits to ensure that you are providing an appropriate environment for a flea bag.

Hoax Rolling Eyes

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:57 pm

The feed seller in Trafalger square was stopped a few years back, been with his family(the license that is) for over 100 years.

They also use birds of prey at Wembly Stadium and shoot them.

If a pigeon gets in the stadium it can't fly out , the angles too steep.
Considering they fly for miles but can't get out of stadiums, weird eh!

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:02 pm

You'r right about the dog adoption...

Don't you just love Brussels What a Face

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:06 pm

Westbone wrote:You'r right about the dog adoption...

Don't you just love Brussels What a Face

I quite like their sprouts though.

No-one else can grow them quite the same!

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by westcoaster on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:12 pm

I reckon the baby pigeons are all locked away in faraday cages

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:19 pm

westcoaster wrote:I reckon the baby pigeons are all locked away in faraday cages

Now Robert - You are just trying to drag old professor brain box Grogg into the debate?

I love the adverts you see where you can adopt a dog for as little as £5 a month and you will receive regular letters to let you know how your surrogate child is fairing.

But how do you know it is your actual dog that is writing the letters? Call me cynical, but I think that they just might have a team of people on the minimum wage who pretend to be literate dogs.

I hope I am wrong but the thought has actually crossed my admittedly bitter mind.

Hoax

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by westcoaster on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:24 pm

Jeez, I hope David Cameron doesn't subscribe to The westone forum, he'd probably adopt that idea as policy for the unemployed.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by corsair on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:55 pm

This just HAS to be the biggest hijack, and most off topic thread EVER?

Well done, everybody! Idea

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:58 am

OK

Back on topic

If a humbucker is two single coils in series, then a Strat in positions 2 and 4 cannot be like a humbucker as the pickups are wired in parallel.

Am I missing something?

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:28 am

Of course you can have a humbucker in parallel.

Can use a mini switch or pull/push.

I've a few like that, some I did myself and others that came like that.

Westones do it on Thunder's, Rainbows and all their guitars with phase switching.

What do your Rainbows do with the PEQ, series to parallel, in phase .

But they'll never sound like a Strat as the coils of a h/bucker are close together, whereas the Strat's pups are about 21/2" apart picking up different string frequencies

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:44 am

I know that Damian, but that is not a standard humbucker, it is a humbucker with switched phasing.

My point is that a Strat in positions 2 and 4 is really not like a humbucker as the pickups are wired in parallel as opposed to series, therefore it is not a surprise that they don't sound like a humbucker, regardless of distance between coils.

Have to admit that I still don't know why a Concord doesn't sound like a Strat ( even though I think it does!)

I am going back to baby pigeons soon

Hoax Very Happy

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:45 am

hoax wrote:
Have to admit that I still don't know why a Concord doesn't sound like a Strat ( even though I think it does!)

Hoax Very Happy

this is what i have found is the difference;

concord position #2 & 4 = bzzzzzzzzzzz
strat position #2 & 4 = shhhhhhhhhhhhh

in position #2 & 4, they are not supposed to sound like a humbucker, they are just using the same technique to reduce the noise.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:10 am

Thanks for that

I prefer the bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz one. Kinda reminds me of a little baby pigeon.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:12 am

i like a good bzzzzzz too

that's why i'm a Westoner

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:59 am

Geez, it's the 'king blind leading the blind here.

Do you think all Strats had a reverse middle pup!.

What is a 'standard' humbucker. A Gibson PAF 2 wires?

Times have moved on a bit.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:20 am

Westbone wrote:Geez, it's the 'king blind leading the blind here.

Do you think all Strats had a reverse middle pup!.

What is a 'standard' humbucker. A Gibson PAF 2 wires?

Times have moved on a bit.

Question 1 - No
Question 2 - No not specifically 2 wire, not specifically Gibson nor PAF, but if it is switched using either coil tap or phase reversal on one coil then it aint operating as a true humbucker.

I am sorry to hear about your sight impairment, if I had known about I would not have allowed myself be led by you. It must get a bit fiddly when you are trying to wire a guitar using Braille.

Hoax bounce

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by gittarasaurus on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:42 am

wowie zowie baby!

this is only just, gee whiz you know what i noticed about my Westone?

Drink Beer

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Sgt. Vimes on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:43 pm

the reason you dont see baby pidgeons is: they are out of phase till they reach adulthood

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:00 pm

hoax wrote:I know that Damian, but that is not a standard humbucker, it is a humbucker with switched phasing.

My point is that a Strat in positions 2 and 4 is really not like a humbucker as the pickups are wired in parallel as opposed to series, therefore it is not a surprise that they don't sound like a humbucker, regardless of distance between coils.

Have to admit that I still don't know why a Concord doesn't sound like a Strat ( even though I think it does!)

I am going back to baby pigeons soon

Hoax Very Happy

series in phase, series out of phase, parallel in phase, parallel out of phase

All working as a true h/bucker.

Must be hard to read anything with your head stuck up where the sun don't shine.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:11 pm

Sorry to hear that you got your head stuck Damian.

A good course of laxatives should do the job. That big ol' bloated head will come out with fair pop and you'll be back to your old cheery self in no time!

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Iceman on Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:19 pm

Along that same line of thinking Mike have you ever noticed how, no matter how much you try to, a Husqvarna can never be tuned to sound like a proper chainsaw such as this one?...



I mean, come on... what is the deal with that?!? Chores 2

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:16 pm

hoax wrote:Sorry to hear that you got your head stuck Damian.

A good course of laxatives should do the job. That big ol' bloated head will come out with fair pop and you'll be back to your old cheery self in no time!

Hoax

Very child like and petty.

Did notice that there was no comment on p/up configurations.

Still fighting the world, lol

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by hoax on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:21 am

Sleep Sleep Sleep

PM sent

Hoax


Last edited by hoax on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by corsair on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:04 am

OK.... let's all just take a deep breath and let this go....

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Barry on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:17 am

Jeez, and I get locked out and spat upon for correcting factual errors? No

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by Westbone on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:46 pm

Cheers for the pm.

No point taken.

You need to swot up on your humbuckers.

Forget your coil tap.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

Post by grogg on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:50 pm

Very Happy Thanks for the laff fellas, will be letting the baby pigeons out of the Faradays as soon as it warms up a little. Shooting allowed, chainsaws no.

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Re: Concord vs strat - POP Quiz!

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