extra s/c p/up on my strat

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extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:11 pm

Hi every one..... I know this has nothing to do with westies but its making my brain ache. I am thinking of putting a 2nd S/C next to the existing bridge one on my strat to make a humbucker (albeit on a slant). I would like to have this 2nd coil to be switchable as follows: series/off/parallel (or out of phase-whichever is preferable) to retain the original sounds as much as possible. How would I wire this up and would having a 2nd coil next to the bridge one mess up it's sound (even when off)? I have a mini on/off/on switch and a spare scartchplate and am itching to cut/drill/solder.

Cheers

Ian


P.S. How do I put this in the Non Westone section? Sorry

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by Barry on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:29 pm

IanO wrote:...How do I put this in the Non Westone section?
Done. Wink

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:49 pm

i love to do oddball stuff like that.

it would be easy to add the pup and put in a mini switch to do on/off/on with phase reverse
is your switch a double pole switch?

here is a good website with lots of wiring ideas

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:26 pm

here is a quickie sketch

just land the wire labeled to 5-way switch on the same lug as the existing bridge pickup, and you are set.
the new pickup will only work when the existing bridge pickup is selected by the 5-way
then you have the mini switch to control the extra pup, in phase/off/reverse phase.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:49 pm

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Would it be possible to add parallel/series with another switch or is this getting too complicated? As I believe that this would give a high/normal/reduced output. Is this correct.....and/or possible?



Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:28 pm


you will want to use a 2position switch
1. connect the first mini switch to the second mini switch as indicated (instead of to the 5-way)
2. remove the ground connection of the original bridge pickup and connect to the second mini switch.
3. connect jumpers on second mini switch
4. connect to 5-way switch on same lug as original bridge pickup

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by hoax on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:21 pm

I just did one of these mini switches on a Washburn Les Paul to give phase reversal when both pickups are on.

They are pretty small and hard to solder neatly.

Top tip is to solder as many wires as you can outwith the guitar (easy on Strat) starting with the two jumper wires, and try to think ahead so that if two wires go into one lug, then try to do them at the same time.

Pretty obvious I suppose!

Hoax

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:28 pm

Cheers, thanks for your help.

all i have to do now is cut a nice neat hole in my nice shiny pearloid scratchplate!!

Will let you know how it all goes.

cheers again

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:47 pm

:idea: just a note of reminder:

:arrow: you may want to check the function of your mini switches with a meter before making and connections or installations.

this design requires mini switch 1 to have both poles of the double pole switch on/off/on which means, all 4 switches off when the handle is in the center position.

there are many different switching schemes using the same looking package of a switch with 6 terminals on the back. other variations will not be suitable for this design.
a common DPDT mini-switch i have found lately is a design that allows the same switch to be used for both on/off/on and on/on/on. (it has 2 switches open and 2 switches closed when the handle is in the middle) that kind will not work for this application.

the sellers don't always know the difference, and may sell the switch without knowing what they actually have
(but now i have a bag of 12 extras, yeehaaa!)

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:27 pm

Thanks for the heads up Gittar....

I'm wondering if having the phase switch AND the series/parallel switch is really necessary, my initial idea was to make a H/B for a rockier sound. What's your opinion? (and anyone else got any advice about the need for both switches). Could you give me the diagram for series/off/parallel for the new p/up in conjunction with the existing S/C. Sorry to make you draw more pretty pictures......please accept my thanks once again....now if you could just cut out that extra S/C sized hole in my shiny new scratchplate for me.......

Cheers
Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:54 pm

i think having both switches can be useful.

with the pickups in parallel mode, engaging the phase switch will tend to cause a lower output.

so by having the option to switch to series mode, you can compensate for the diminished signal of out-of-phase/parallel connection, by having the two pickups add their signals together in series. that way you still have the phase difference to give a different frequency curve to the output, and you can have a stronger output signal.

it gives you a bit more variety of tonal possiblities if you care to explore the subtleties.
btw, this configuration does make a dead setting on the 5-way switch possible.

i like to make little sketches, they are just doodles to me. ezpz Cool

if you use only a DPDT for the series/off/parallel, it will turn off both new and old bridge pickups. so that setup doesn't give you control of just the added pickup. and it would make a dead setting on your 5-way selector possible.
if you don't want 2 mini switches, you could use a push/pull to engage the extra bridge pickup and a 2position switch for series/parallel. that configuration would leave no dead spots in the switching.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:57 pm

Hi G,
Just for clarity before I begin the work ,my ideal would be:

Position 1 - Bridge S/C with added 2nd S/C on/off, series/parallel (& phase switch).
2 - middle p/up plus bridge (as configured via switches above).
3,4,5 as per normal.

As you have so kindly given diagram for phase, I would put it in as I know I'd regret not doing it if I left it out.
Is as per your 2nd diagram?
Is it possible to have position 2 to be automatically just the middle and original bridge S/C irrespective of mini switch settings (maybe getting too complicated here)?

Dead spots don't sound like something I want, does this mean a setting with no output?

Cheers
Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:59 pm

IanO wrote:
Is it possible to have position 2 to be automatically just the middle and original bridge S/C irrespective of mini switch settings (maybe getting too complicated here)?

that gets into expensive switches

IanO wrote:
Dead spots don't sound like something I want, does this mean a setting with no output?

a dead spot is a no output setting.

the phase switch gives you an off position for the added pickup. but that is what causes the dead spot on the 5-way switch.

if the 5-way is set to bridge only (pos1), and your mini-switch1 is set for the added pickup off, then the series/parallel mini-switch2 will give no output when set to series (because one pickup is off).

this wiring scheme is setup as if the bridge is just one pickup and you can choose various connections or off.

it seems what you want is a control for a 4th pickup added to the scheme. to overcome the dead spot issue would require different switches, so if you are trying to use what you have on hand, that kind of blows it up.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:32 am

As usual with me what seems simple in theary always ends up being "the expensive option". Control over the 4th S/C in addition to the existing is indeed what i had planned. Any chance you could let me know what I'd need to do it the complicated way as I think it's what I'd prefer?

Cheers

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:57 am

with a bit of doodling i have a schematic to explain the wiring for the 5-way and the phase switch. it is not really very complicated, actually. i need to clean it up and i'll post it later. the rest of the wiring is mostly the same as the previous sketch, just a different switch for the phase/off/reverse which needs to be connected the right way so you can eliminate the dead spot. take a look on the pages for the switches, there are some notes on the internal wiring of the switches.

use one of these on/on DPDT switches for series/parallel

use one of these on/on/on DPDT switches for phase/off/reverse,

using a Grigsby 5-way/4 pole blade switch you can have the added pickup function only in position 1. using a standard 5-way switch, the added pickup will work in positions 1 & 2.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:46 pm

Thanks for the clarity G

I will get one of the Grigsby switches and an on/on/on mini switch, my on/on switch works as in the link you added above.

i await your schematic with relish..........and ketchup

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:08 pm

are you ready??? i think this will do most all of what you want.

*the added pickup(B2) will only work on 5-way pos1.
*off switch for B2
*series/parallel B1,B2
*phase reverse B2
*no dead spots, but one incomplete output (+)

> the primary control is the 5-way.
if the S/O/P mini-switch is set to the middle(B1 on, B2 off), then the 5-way works like a normal strat switch.

> if the bridge is selected (5-way, pos1 or pos2), the next switch is the Series/Off/Parallel. this will select : up=B1,B2 series; middle=B1 on, B2 off; down=B1,B2 parallel. you will want to check closely the setup on the S/O/P switch's internal wiring. you want the middle handle position to have the connections as indicated in the balloon in the lower left corner of the sketch.

(+) if the 5-way is in pos2 and if the S/O/P switch is selected to series, B1 has no output, but it is hidden because the middle pickup comes on in pos2. just move the S/O/P to the middle, or to parallel, then B1 has output again and you get the quacky back

this drawing retains the two tone controls for middle and neck pickups. you could easily change it to have master tone, if you want to use the space for the second tone pot to place the mini switches.

you will need to watch closely to get the phase connections on the bridge pups to have the preferred setup in the preferred switch positions.
meaning; B1 phased properly with N and M pups so the 5-way is normal sounding.
and also the phase reverse switch for B2, to get it set up the way you want, with up or down being the "normal" as you prefer.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:51 pm

looking at this on the screen i realize it may be hard to see clearly. Wacky Cyclops

if you want, i can pdf the drawing, and send it to you by email.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:37 pm

Hi G,

I've PM'd you my email for the file , thanks

I had a panic earlier as I could not remember whch way rund the Bridge pup was, I needed the wires to exit the Pup bridge side so I ca add the 2nd next to it (Humbucker styleee)
this got me to thinking, will it cause any issues having the pickups facing opposite directions B1 wires towards bridge, B2 wires towards neck)

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:49 am

.pdf sent. You\'ve got Mail

shouldn't cause any problems i can think of.
the magnetic polarity is oriented up and down, so rotating them that way will not change anything.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Just had a thought....I should really say another thought,
My guitar has the TBX tone control for the bridge P/up (think it's a Strat Plus and it hasn't got lace sensors) and a normal tone for the neck (and middle?). this will mean another alteration to your diagram.........very sorry, it only came to me when you mentioned loosing the tone control to put a switch in it's place.

I'd like to retain the tone for the N & M Pups, and the TBX tone, so will locate the switches elsewhere.

Hopefully this should be the last bombshell I'll drop on you

Thanks again

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:04 pm

i'm going to guess that your strat was originally wired like this

i would recommend that you use the first tone pot for the neck pickup, and the TBX for the bridge pickup(s).
in that setup, there is no tone control for the middle pickup, so no tone adjustments when set to 5-way switch pos3.

with these switches we are left with one tone control per one pickup or, a master tone control for all pickups. to combine two pickups on one tone control would compromise the switching.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:35 pm

Have just plugged my guitar in..........BLESS MY TEN TOES! i've had that guitar since 19 bloody 92 and only now do I discover that the TBX works the middle AND bridge Pups. Shows how often it's used!

Your 1st option sounds good but this is what I've decided on having played it for an hour and trying to work out where to put the switches.

Neck Pup - no tone control - don't like the sound with lowered tone anyway
Mid Pup - no tone control - only really used for Quacky sounds with N/B Pups
Bridge 1+2 TBX tone control - the only time I use a tone control is on the bridge pups-and even then rarely.

I will move the TBX pot to the middle hole leaving the area round the lower hole for the 2 mini switches, this should prevent doing all kinds of damage half way through a song and trying to change Pups.

I will not alter from this as long as it is possible to wire it up this way.

Sorry to change again but this really is it!

honest!

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:08 am

no worries, this is how you end up with what you want. you don't have to settle for half-way if you don't want to.
and besides, making these sketches is fun for me. keeps my brain working Cool . i'll make another anytime you like. maybe someday i'll learn how to use a computer and make nice drawings, but i like pencil and paper just fine.

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:22 pm

Thanks G

Parts are on order....can't wait.

thanks again, will let you know when parts are in and am going ahead

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:30 pm

Tonights the night........
Switches came today
Stripping the scratchplate off tonight to try and cut extra S/C hole tomorrow......still not 100% sure how I'm gonna do it.

Soldering will start Thurs of Fri night depending on mood/confidence/phase of the moon!

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:21 pm

Right ,

Finally managed to get everything done to my Strat, hole cut for additional Pup (chain drilled and filed to suit). Got temporarily scuppered by the "put in a safe place" syndrome for the new Pup cover for the middle pup-had to buy more....still not found the original pack I bought. Embarked on the mammoth task of doing more soldering than I had ever done before and managed to squeeze it all back onto the guitar. While all was off I shielded the cavities with Aluminium tape and finally it was ready to test.

Bug*er.......the B string broke when doing them back up. I'd cheated by loosening them off and removing the trem whilst still attached to the strings, hey it was a 3 week old set of elixirs after all. Ho Hum I'll test it with 5 strings.
Initially I was disappointed.... the HB modes didn't have the growl i had expected and the neck Pup came on when the middle was meant to...bum.
Took it all back apart and checked the wiring diagram , found it was my fault and that I couldn't blame Gittarasaurus' wiring plan. re soldered where necessary and retried.

After playing for about an hour (admittedly at low volume due to it being early hours of the AM) I had started to aclimatise to the sounds. The HB modes (upper switch towards the volume pot-series I think(thickest sound)) were "thicker" yet still Stratty ...loving it now. The phase reverse..........mmmmmmm not really sure about that. Everythng gets SERIOUSLY thin when it's engaged (towards the tone pot). I would hope that it would work really well if building harmonised lines a la Brian May and as I can't be Ar*ed to remove it then it will stay (although I may turn it round as I can see the possibility of "going weedy" at the wrong moment).

Anyway here are some pics:
http://s1151.beta.photobucket.com/user/molecularelk/media/Image0223.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1151.beta.photobucket.com/user/molecularelk/media/Image0222.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

http://s1151.beta.photobucket.com/user/molecularelk/media/Image0224.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


Just wanted to say thanks again to Gittarasaurus. Without your help I would still be driving around at work trying to work out how to wire up my wholly inadequate on/off/on mini switch.

Cheers and here's to the next one!

Ian

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by gittarasaurus on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:50 am

hey, nice job cutting in the extra pickup! that looks great!

i'm glad it all worked out. give it a good test run to see how you like it and what you can do with all the settings. it may take time and you may find uses for settings that didn't seem appealing at first. if you don't like it, then we can work up another wiring scheme for the next one.

i've tried some wiring tricks that i didn't really like much. and so i removed them or changed them. that's what is great about being able to do it yourself, you can alter it in any way you can think of, until it does what you want.

this is one that i did like and have kept it this way...
have you ever seen my Maxtone, my super-customized strat thingy?


there are separate volume controls for single coils and humbuckers, master tone pot (the second knob still says 'tone', but it is actually volume control for the humbuckers)
i added a 3-way blade switch for the mini-buckers, existing 5-way for the lipstick singles
i added a slide switch to select - singles/all pups/humbuckers
push/pulls for humbuckers too, coil split for both, and phase reverse for bridge minibucker
it is amazingly versatile, i can have the neck lipstick on with the bridge mini-bucker (and then split to single coil, and reverse phase the mini).
all kinds of combinations are possible. i can take a split mini-bucker and pair it with the middle pup for a little quacky too. just about anything....
separate volume controls help balance the outputs of the singles and the hummers


Last edited by gittarasaurus on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add pic)

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by Barry on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:26 pm

I'm askeered! affraid

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by IanO on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:41 pm

That looks amazing though I'm glad I didn't have to solder it all! Love the colour too. I must confess that while I was doing mine the thought crossed my mind that a second 5way switch might have been a better way to do the extra switching, but soon realised that getting another of them in would have been a nightmare without routing/chiselling and I had shielded the cavity before the starting the electrics.

I must confess that I now look a t my RG570 and think abut how I can make it better....no anti-Ibanez comments please.


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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by Sgt. Vimes on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:49 pm


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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

Post by Barry on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:46 pm

Saying Nothing Mmmfffph....

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Re: extra s/c p/up on my strat

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