Creating a Trans Black Finish

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Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:05 am

I have just picked up an old Vantage VS650, (Serial number starts with a 0, so I guess this is a 1980 model?). It is in a bit of a sad state - photos will follow later.

It all seems to be there, but has been completely taken apart, other than seperating the body and neck. All the electrics are present, but the pick ups have gone, only to have been replaced by Peavey T60 ones from late 70's

Anyway, I was thinking about doing a trans black finish and thought it a good idea to ask some experts for tips before I start.

I thought that after I have sanded away the old lacquer I would give it a light black stain and rub back before a few coats of tinted black lacquer and then clear (obviously having masked off the centre section during the "Blacking" process). Anyone done this before?

I'd also do the headstock, so will need to replace the decals, as they will be removed in the process. I know there are some posts here somewhere on making new ones, but if anyone has some "to hand", or has the data/image files, I would be much obliged.

And finally, as it has the Peavey T60 pick-ups, I thought I might just wire it up as a T60,  with the variable coil tap tone wiring that it came with - humbucker from about 0-8 and then becoming a single coil from 8-10.

Any thoughts???

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:12 am

What wood are the wings?

Lets have a photo....cyclops

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:44 am

It looks very similar to this

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:04 am

Ash = yes
Maple / Mahagony / visible laminate joints = no

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:18 am

So, is the considered opinion on this one - "don't do it!"?

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:28 am

Just use a dark black  lacquer tint. No need to stain because there's no grain.
Should be fine with. Do it pretty darkish. Look better than it does now. Looks anaemic. 

The join on the wings won't jump out at you, will if you stain.


This guitar has the same set up as the T60. Roll on coil tap. Works fine, much better than a on/off coil tap as per most Mats guitars. Gives you the option of having one pup on tap and the other full 'bucker when both are on. The mini switch is a phase on/off. Thinking of modding a Thunder I with this circuit.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by corsair on Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:30 pm

Roll on coil tap?? Sounds interesting. How does that work? Shocked  That red guitar looks like an APII Cardinal series, eh?!

*later*

OK, found a bit out about it; Seymour Duncan have a diagram for it. Question. Is that pot in addition to the tone pot or instead of? I think I'll have a crack at this...


Last edited by corsair on Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:35 pm

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Was that OEM on the Cardinals? I don't believe I've heard it mentioned before on the Mats forum. Sounds like a good idea to moi.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by gittarasaurus on Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:13 pm

link to Peavey diagram for T-60 here<-

a great site for info and supplies for guitar body finish work ReRanch Guitar Refinishing<-

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:17 pm

Barry wrote:Yeah, I wondered about that too. Was that OEM on the Cardinals? I don't believe I've heard it mentioned before on the Mats forum. Sounds like a good idea to moi.
Not on all CS 400's most have a 'normal' type mini switch coil tap and yes it's factory wired.

Tone pots have a center detent. On detent it's a h'bucker roll anti clockwise it works as a normal tone. Roll clockwise to coil tap. It will work without a center detent pot as per the Peavey.
Note there is also a treble bleed cap on both volumes. 
Stick another photo of the guts up tomorrow.



Last edited by Westbone on Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:50 am

If you wanted to mod any MMK that has no green phase wire you'd have to mod the pickup wiring to this. It would only need to be your bridge pup.
Say for instance a Thunder I. 1 volume, 2 tones, coil tap mini switch.  Or a Speccy with similar MMK 45's, not the other UBC crap, be a waste of time.
Both tones as 'roll' coil tap/tone, mini switch as a phase switch. Using all original pots/switch, simple...Very Happy



Last edited by Westbone on Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:15 am

Peavey T60
Flat Eric's Bass & Guitar Collection: Peavey T-60 and Eighty Thousand Visitors. . .
http://flatericbassandguitar.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/peavey-t-60-and-eighty-thousand-visitors.html

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:05 am

Westbone wrote:Just use a dark black  lacquer tint. No need to stain because there's no grain.
Should be fine with. Do it pretty darkish. Look better than it does now. Looks anaemic. 

The join on the wings won't jump out at you, will if you stain.

I shall be getting the sander out at the weekend I think and see how it all goes...

affraid

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:51 am

Adey wrote:

I shall be getting the sander out at the weekend I think and see how it all goes...

affraid
Nothing ventured nothing gained...go for it.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:02 pm

Uncle Mats made a lot of really nice Natural finish guitars, but when the wood used is "blaah", it really looks yucky.

One of the boyz at the Mats site once referred to these finishes as a lovely shade of well soaked urine. He may well be right in this case Barf 2

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:05 pm

Barry wrote:One of the boyz at the Mats site once referred to these finishes as a lovely shade of well soaked urine. He may well be right in this case Barf 2

A choice description!

Hoping I can improve this one, and not turn it into a lump of poo....!

Shocked

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:11 pm

Barry wrote:Uncle Mats made a lot of really nice Natural finish guitars, but when the wood used is "blaah", it really looks yucky.

One of the boyz at the Mats site once referred to these finishes as a lovely shade of well soaked urine. He may well be right in this case Barf 2
That's encouraging.. Suspect

Exactly! needs improvement..Twisted Evil

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:23 am

Adey wrote:
Barry wrote:One of the boyz at the Mats site once referred to these finishes as a lovely shade of well soaked urine. He may well be right in this case Barf 2

A choice description!

Hoping I can improve this one, and not turn it into a lump of poo....!

Shocked
How's it coming along??

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:00 pm

Slowly.... I keep wasting my time going to work every day.  Crying or Very sad 
 
I gave it the first coat of trans black and was so unimpressed by the grain that showed through that I have just decided to make it all black.

So, it 's had about 5 or 6 coats of tinted black lacquer and looks pretty dark now. I'll give it a rub down this weekend and another couple of coats and clear lacquer on top before leaving to harden and then polish.

I'm going to black out the front of the headstock too, so will need to sort out a new transfer. Not done one before, but I gather the font is Vivaldi, so easy to do. Just need to get size right.

Printing in Black might not work though.... Printing with White ink isn't something my printer has, so am still thinking about this one. Neutral

Need to pull one of the Peavey T60 pick ups apart to extend the cable, as it's a bit too short.

Keeping an eye out for some Vantage chrome tuners too as the ones on it have been changed to cheap gold ones...

So, it;s all going slowly slowly.... Embarassed


Last edited by Adey on Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missed a bit!)

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:49 am

As this is not strictly "Westone", I've created a post on the Mats Guitar Gallery Forum HERE


It's getting there slowly...

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:01 am

Adey wrote:
It's getting there slowly...
But it's getting there.

Good choice of pups.... Smile

As for the logo.....could always print in a yellowish colour, with lacquer on top looks goldish, kind-of.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:43 am

Westbone wrote:...Good choice of pups.... Smile

Kind of figured you might. tongue
Must try them...one day.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:00 pm

Barry wrote:
Westbone wrote:...Good choice of pups.... Smile

Kind of figured you might. tongue
Must try them...one day
Check the magnet mod on the MMK45's.
Works great on the bridge pup. Think Tonerider Rocksong bridge pup, you've nailed it.
The MMK 45 neck is a bit too overwound. Could always unwind the coil that's not tapped to lower the resistance.

Or just buy one(Tonerider)... Wink  Barry...Don't know what they cost your side but could always send you some from the UK if cheaper. Cool

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:32 pm

Ta Damian.
They seem to be just over the USD$100 mark. No dealer in Canada so add about 28% exchange + shipping to that.

But I won't be buying one any time soon...no real need, and no real money. Neutral

Maybe I'll fiddle with a mag swap. Not much else to do in the coming winter months except harass the wife's cockapoo and feed the aquarium fish.

Like so many of these manufacturers ToneRiders are not represented in Canada. New Zealand and Norway, for Pete's sake, have a rep, but not us. Vintage brand guitars has also dried up, some time ago. Really liked their offerings.

Nobody loves us. Population too spread out I guess.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by corsair on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:30 pm

The Classic AC2 I bought for the Corsair Avenger cost the princely sum of A$65, and the rest of the range were the same price, give or take, so CAD$100 seems a touch expensive... unless that's a hundy for a set?

I wonder if theses firms that aren't represented in Canada just figure that Canadians can just use the US distributors?!?

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:00 pm

That's $102 USD. And yeah it's for the pair, but still... + +

...firms that aren't represented in Canada just figure that Canadians can just use the US distributors?!?
I guess so. The US market is HUGE (sorry President-elect Trump) and we're rather insignificant by comparison.

There's a sorry history of American (and other) companies setting up shop here and losing their fiscal shirts. I worked for AT&T Canada until they too gave up after a few years. Not too long ago Target (another HUGE company) packed it in when they couldn't match the low prices and inventory of their US operations.

WalMart does OK though. But they don't sell pickups. tongue

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:50 am

All back together now HERE

Anyone with a view on the 250K pots I used as per the Peavey T60? Would 500K's make a difference?

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:58 pm

You don't mention how it sounds?

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:15 pm

splodger wrote:Sound is quite bright.
Turn to page 2. Very Happy

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:22 pm

Barry wrote:
splodger wrote:Sound is quite bright.
Turn to page 2. Very Happy
Thanks, it helps... Laughing

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:32 pm

500's let more treble through.

More than likely all that maple in the guitar making it brightish.

Try some caps across the jack output to tune to taste. Ceramic caps are best.
Try a 220, 330, 470pf untill you find one you like. And yes across the jack output socket, live to common!

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Barry on Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:51 pm

Looks like Neal's site is down again. Crying or Very sad

The last time it happened it was a result of his internet host changing the server configuration without notifying him first.

Hang in there, it will eventually live again.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:37 am

Westbone wrote:500's let more treble through.

More than likely all that maple in the guitar making it brightish.

Try some caps across the jack output to tune to taste. Ceramic caps are best.
Try a 220, 330, 470pf untill you find one you like. And yes across the jack output socket, live to common!
It's trebley enough already! But not too bright, if that makes sense...

What I have noticed is that I can't turn the tone down as much as on other guitars, to get that darker sound. I suppose that this is down to the caps on the tone pots, but there are also caps on the volume pots (I guess that this is something to do with making it a progressive coil tap???) 4 caps altogether.

It does certainly sound like a single coil when Tone knob at 10 and also humbuckerish at 7 or below. Just doesn't roll off too much treble as the knob is rolled back to 0.


Last edited by Adey on Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Whoops)

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:16 am

Caps on the volume are treble bleed, retains treble as you roll down the volume.
Disconnect them and try.

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:37 am

Sounds like something for the weekend...

Laughing

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:06 pm

Just nip one tail off, takes 2 seconds

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Westbone on Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:49 pm


It's trebley enough already! But not too bright, if that makes sense...
Alnico II magnets in those pups. Clear sounding not as dark/muddy as a MMK45 or a Dimarzio s/dist.

Have any other guitars with AII equipped pickups?  

MMK 75's are alnico II, clear sounding pups. It's all a matter of taste.. Cool

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Re: Creating a Trans Black Finish

Post by Adey on Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:50 am

I do like the sound. They are, as you say, very clear. I just want to be able to dial out a bit of the treble when I wanrt to, but the tone knob isn't making a huge difference. I thought that I prob need to put a bigger cap on it. Bridge and Neck are .033 and .022 at the moment...

I guess my X390 is AII magnets, as it has 75's in it. And this has a very clear tone like you said. Haven't played that for a while, so will have to dig it out.

Overall though, I am happy with the result in the Vantage. Just needs a bit of a tweak.

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Matsumoku site is back up

Post by Barry on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:48 am

Quick update
...problems have been resolved and the Mats Forum is now available

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